Fasken
Fabiane, throughout the course of doing these podcasts, I have found that the topic of building an audience and brand and telling your story comes up a lot, which is right in your wheelhouse. And so I wanted to start off digging into your view on PR and how it relates to investor relations. And so what are some of the challenges that you seen during your career when it comes to building an investor brand?
Goldstein
Thank you for having me here. Great question for us to start. I think that looking back to when I started with investor relations, when I was internal, in a bank in Brazil, one of the largest banks in Brazil, it was treated as two things completely separate, you know. And I think that we, it was, it took us a little bit of time to really understand how integrated these things were, and how we should be building very strong relationships with the main journalists like, in the good and the bad times, right, I thought that we, we need to treat the journalist as stakeholders, right when we are working on the, on the communications, we need to look at a journalist as stakeholders, and we need to not only look at them as a way for us to be on the cover of The Wall Street Journal, but also, like, it's it's a two way relationship, right? Sometimes, we will have to be sources and give information. And this doesn't need to become an article. But we need to be there for them. And they will be there for us in other important moments. So I think that this is an important. First takeaway for that, like, look at these, building these relationships as an important tool for for investor relations officers, right doesn't need to be only the CFO and the CEO, like you can build your relationships with the journalists as well.
Fasken
Right, okay. You just mentioned something that when you and I were chatting on previous calls, or working at a big bank in Brazil, I mean, you have a history of being a bit of a trailblazer, if you will, in being it's one of the one of the first women in Brazil, who was talking about investments on social media. Why do you think social media is such an important tool for investor relations?
Goldstein
So that's true. So I am, I have to say that I really love social media. And in terms of investor relations, I was one of the first women in Brazil to talk about capital markets. And I love Twitter. I love the way the information flew, how we were able to get to know so many people discussing about the same subject at the same time. And this, I'm saying that this happened, I think, more than 10 years ago, because I think I already received some something from Peter saying that this was already 10 years ago. I even remember, when I when I started, when I, I had some, I was an enterpreneur. And I worked. I built some companies in Brazil. And back in 2010, I was trying to help companies deliver a better investment story for retail investors. And these needed to be done through social media. And, I found a lot of companies really saying no in a way of like, oh, "like retail investors only want to know about dividends, they are not really they don't really make a difference in our investor base". And I'm happy to see 12 years from now, from that day, how different it is right? We were discussing this at the NIRI conference back in Boston in June, that for some companies, the retail investors make up almost 40% of their investor bases. So there's no other way to communicate with these investors than on social media, right? It's now now not only Twitter, there are so many other platforms I heard from, from a company that is doing investor days inside Reddit, so that they can reach out to the ones that discuss shares on Reddit. But so many interesting platforms are available today. And I am a huge fan of how this information gets available to investors and I feel that companies need to be more and more connected to understand the discussions that are happening about their stock, whether they like it or not. So, I feel it's a challenge for investor relations, but there's no way to be out of it.
Fasken
Is that a common? If I call it an objection that you hear from investor relations teams, or maybe management teams at some of the companies that you work with that they don't want to invest in social media, because they view it as a retail focused strategy?
Goldstein
Yes, I think most of them relate to social media in in, in terms of being connected to their strategies with with retail investors. And in this sense, I have to say, I always tell them when they tell me that, that I tend to agree that the institutional investors engage much less on social media than retail investors, but they are there, because they are that they are checking the buzz, right? Because institutional investors have all the tools to check the buzz wherever it is. And social media is great for them. So we know that they have all the tools to get to understand what's been said about this company in this in all these platforms. So I try to make these companies that have this feeling to understand that even though it's more, you will get more engagement from retail investors and social media. Yet, all the institutional investors are keeping up and listening to the to the buzz.
Fasken
So it seems to me like there's two parts, two major benefits to leveraging social specifically, which, you know, is only one part of the PR strategy. But it seems to me like it's one is that listening component of what are people saying about us, what is their perception, and being able to see that in real time? And respond to it as well. But the other side, it seems to be more on the just communication, right? If getting the message out and building a narrative. Any tips, though, for somebody who's just starting out? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of people who listen to this and don't necessarily have a social media strategy from an IR perspective, what are some of the steps that people should take?
Goldstein
Right. So I think that the most successful companies that I saw, go like do, like very effective programs on social media, are the ones that really integrate. So the investor relations teams integrates with, with the communications team, because normally the investor relations team is a small one. And it's sometimes very hard for them to keep up with everything that is going on on social media. And at the same time, the communications area, they don't, the investor relations is not top of their minds in terms of when they are preparing the messages, they don't really have the investors as one of the stakeholders that would be receiving the message. So I think that my take is like, be a partner of the communications team, have the communications team super engaged in everything that you do as investor relations, like treat them as, as a real partner in everything, because that's the best way for them to understand that everything that they produce, will also be seen by [investors], even when they are all only when the social media team is preparing something that is focused on clients, right, normal clients or prospects, etc. They really need to know the kind of impact that this would have on investors that are looking at this message. And so having them understand like train them and engage them to understand that I think it's really important and I would say it's a great way for funding for the investor relations team to increase the the the outreach right because they will they will have the communications team helping them write messages.
Fasken
That's a great point. Okay. And kind of going back to some of your experience in Brazil. And you know, I know now you you put a fair amount of time into helping sort of international companies who are looking to build a presence in North America. Obviously, that's a challenging thing. If there's not much awareness and coming into a new market where or maybe you're not very well known. So what are some of the challenges that you see for those international companies that are trying to get into, say the US, or North America in general?
Goldstein
Yeah, that's a great question Mark. And I have to say that I'm really enjoying having this opportunity to be able to serve clients from Asia, from Israel, from India, European, and see that part of the challenges that we had in Brazil and other Latin American countries are exactly the same. So it's not really very different. Of course, there are specifics on each country and each region. But in general, more, a lot of the questions are the same. And that's why we have been integrating more of the PR, into the IR programs. That's I think one of the most important differentiators that we offer right now. Because I feel that the IR team, sometimes they feel that only putting out a wire with their press releases is enough for the markets to be aware. And now that I'm living here for almost four years, and I understand very well, how the news come to us, in our devices, especially on our iPads, iPhones, like I use and but to our phones, and to our screens, and even to the TV is a complete different way. So in terms of PR here, like of course the journalists are receiving the press releases, and sometimes they react directly on it. But you need to do much more, you need to be much more proactive, to really get attention. Like the journalist right now they are more, they're similar to the sell side analysts, right they cover a huge number of companies. And most of the time, the journalists that are here in USA, and I'm talking specifically about American journalists, right, not the ones that are representing foreign outlets. The ones that are here, they, they sometimes really need to have the angle that makes sense for their American readers. And that's how we try to help, right, because a company that is only writing a press release, translating it from their language to English, and then putting it out on the wire, some sometimes don't really get what would take for a journalist to really pick it up and maybe interview the CEO, maybe interview the CFO and turn it into a story. This has been challenging. It's just as challenging as getting coverage from a new sell-side. But it pays off, right? Because once the journalists really understand and establishes a relationship, that's when your company starts to show up more in the platforms in the news cycles. And hopefully, you'll get more interviews from top management.
Fasken
Do you think that that is so different from maybe small or mid cap companies in North America? Think it's harder for an international company coming in?
Goldstein
I think it's harder, of course not for like, when we're talking about the largest companies on each country's not as much but for example for a Brazilian company, small cap company in Brazil is a micro micro micro company here. So it's, it's really hard for them to get the attention. And it's hard because sometimes it's not even easy for the journalist as well as analysts to find the peers to correlate to who they already know that does that. So I really think that it's more challenging. Sometimes I saw for example, I learned by by watching these programs that for example, TV programs, it's very hard to see foreign companies being interviewed on CNBC, for example, I only see American companies being interviewed there. I don't know if that's a policy. But I see as, like it's an American show for the American people about the American Companies. Right? We need to, so we need to explain to our clients right, like, it'd be very hard for you to get CNBC. Let's try other outlets that would be interested in getting into there. But I find it really more challenging for, for foreign companies.
Fasken
So you have a few different when you think about that PR tool set, you've got the the journalists, you've got press releases, you've got social media. Are there other tools or channels that you're leveraging that you found to be successful? For companies who are looking to build that brand?
Goldstein
No, I don't think that there are other channels. But I think that what we are trying to explore is the creativity in using these channels. I think that it's been, I think it's for everybody. The challenge right now is time and attention. Right? So how do we stand out in the crowd, on the platforms that these people are? So for example, normally, the main tool for you to reach out to journalists and investors is email, right. But I'm finding out that it's very interesting to see how I normally received more feedback and quicker answers from journalists, if I reach out to them on Twitter. And now with all this discussion on Twitter, let's see what will be the right fit.
Fasken
That will remain.
Goldstein
And there are other other platforms ,like platforms, that appeared like, I don't know, every month, there's a new platform, and everybody who works with communications, engage with these new platforms very quickly to get to know that this is an important one. But for me, it's very interesting to see like, I really get more engagement on Twitter, we see. Even when we send email, we some some journalists are very smart, I think they they put an automatic answers telling us like, try to reach out here, here and here. Because other than that, by mail. And also in terms of format, we have been seeing more and more video being used. So I am not such a high user of YouTube. But I know that YouTube is an important platform. And it is, when we are talking to our clients, it's something that it's always on our list. So that they they think of YouTube, right? Some companies are bringing the conference calls to YouTube, investor days on YouTube. Sometimes they just post it after it, or sometimes they really do it live on the platform. We understand that doing live on the platform on YouTube, in an open space is hard. So we normally prefer to put it out afterwards. But I know that some companies that tried and succeeded in doing it live so...
Fasken
Great. And one of the things I feel is a challenge is actually funny. This is a good opportunity where I could speak about this from my own perspective a little bit, which is in the early early days of Irwin, we recognized that there was a big brand building effort. And part of what we needed to do was get out there and get the news outlets and everything. And so we started thinking about PR and fortunately, I had a friend of mine who now works with us and is/was in PR. But it's always hard to figure out the ROI. That was always a piece that we struggled with. Yeah. And I imagine that that's a question that you get fairly regularly from from your clients as well. And so how do you think about or how your clients think about the ROI and sort of measuring that ROI of PR and IR together?
Goldstein
Right? Well, that's a that's a great question. In terms of PR, most of the clients like to have that calculation of How much the the article that was printed would have costed if it was paid advertising, right. So when we do this calculation, of course, we get to two big numbers. So the ROI is, is is good. But I think it also comes with I would say, like, comparing having it versus not not having it, and the cost of not being there. Yeah. When your competitor is, because that's, that's sometimes the complaint that that we get, right? Oh, but why my competitor is here, here and there. And, and we need to sometimes explain like, well, but your competitor released five press releases, and you didn't have as much news, we need to produce news so that we get on the news. And then we get so... But I agree with you, like, I didn't have any, I don't have any experience to share with you in terms of a client that would question the the effectiveness of the program by only calculating the ROI. I think that we try to give them not only this, this calculation of the presence in how much will the presence cost, but also, for example, when you when you send a press release, there is an outreach like your name is out like there, and how did it help getting picked up by the specialized media and eventually starting new relationships with other other outlets that voice out? But I'm with you like it's not pure math to get to it.
Fasken
I think so. Yeah, I agree. And I mean, that's, I think, we came to that realization to have it's part of it is a little bit measurable in terms of I don't know, you can look at traffic metrics and viewership and things part of it is also just soft, it's, you know, that you should do it, you know, that you have to do it to some degree, and it's a marathon, not a sprint, take some time.
Goldstein
Just to add that our programs for the for the foreign companies, it's not only it's about taking them a lot of opportunities that are available in this communications market, that they wouldn't be aware if it wasn't for us, right, because we we are here, we are connected to all these outlets. I think it's great how a lot of the smaller outlets work with, with events, with awards with a lot of very important ways for brands to build their investor brand. And this is something that we also take to to our clients as well. And that they, of course, would they be able to do it without us they would, but like we have it in, in a very organized way and makes it for to make their lives easier, especially for the investor relations areas. They are so small and really don't have the bandwidth to go after all these opportunities.
Fasken
Right? Yep. On that note, one of the things that's kind of interesting I find about IR is, regardless of how small the company is, by way of being a public company, and doing these investments, and doing investigations, doing earnings calls, and AGMs and everything, you are always creating content. And so there does seem to be this steady stream of content being created. To your point, whether it's a press release, or an investor deck or or whatever it is. A lot of the time, though, to your point, it's like you do a press release or you post it on your IR website. And that's it. And so, what are some of the ways we've talked about a few of them, but what are some of the ways that you're seeing IROs leverage that content and create sort of interesting formats to repurpose that those materials?
Goldstein
Yeah, I have been seeing like a lot of creativity among investor relations. And I I find it really, really cool that they do that. I think that I think that what I have been seeing is like that, first of all, they would think of other other ways than the normal regulatory moments to to reach out to investors. Right. So having like a monthly newsletter that organizes all the releases that you put out. Because, again, you think that when you put it out in sometimes it's even only on your website, right, they didn't even become a press release, somebody on the other side received them read it, right. But that's not true. So why don't like gather all of that and do it on a monthly basis, just like with the links and everything, and it's an opportunity for you to, to write two or three paragraphs about what was going on that month in on an additional note, because I feel that some companies really, sometimes do the minimum and only on the quarterly earnings. And it like it's very important to, to be out and reaching out more. So it's a way for you to get information out. I think that doing this, this newsletters, this is a way to do that. Another thing that we have been talking to a lot of companies about this, of course, there's all this discussion on ESG. And some of the companies are still only looking at ESG as like, I need to produce a sustainability report once a year. And and then after, and then they complain that sometimes when the rating company releases the rating, it's one year with information that is late and Oh, but you didn't update it anywhere. Right? So if you didn't update, how would they know. So we are also incentivizing them to think of the ESG content as a content that needs to be updated not only on a quarterly basis on the earnings releases, but more than that, and can prepare like an ESG website that is just as interactive as investor relations so that people can sign up to receive updates, and you create like a like a newsletter or a blog post or something where you keep sending these news out. What I think we have been discussing AI, right, we know that more and more. A lot of content that is published be it the rating reports or news that are published outside or just robots that come into your website, get the content and put it out somewhere, or robots that get your press release and put it out, right. So if you don't make it, if you don't think of all your everything that you're putting out available to the robots as well, your message will be limited. Yeah, that's I think it's it's important for IROS to also realize,
Fasken
Sort of, to your point thinking about how do you it's just how do you really distribute these things on a more regular basis, I assume through a variety of different channels, right? And testing different channels and seeing what what works? Yes. But I also feel like to your point, a lot of people though, they put the press release, and then they send out an email. But people are always talking about how investors get 1000s of emails a day, it's hard to keep track of them all, right?
Goldstein
Yes, but at the same time, for example, you would want to make sure that the important people, the key investors that you want to receive your message. You I know it will sound super basic, but I heard it from from, from companies, right, you need to be sure that they are in your mailing list for instance. And, and sometimes they're not like some I have asked companies in the past like, okay, so your top 20 investors are in your, in your, in your list, and they didn't really know. And when they when they went out to look, they realized that they weren't. Right. So
Fasken
It's always missed opportunity.
Goldstein
Yeah. And like, of course, like having a great CRM for me is like is number one, right? So you can't rely only on the people who go to your website to receive your information, you really must be proactive in the sense of making sure everyone that you want that to receive your message is basically on the mailing list.
Fasken
I think we're we're big advocates that are one of active investor relations and sounds like you are too and I think it adding PR to that is just like another step in that direction of being very active and being very vocal and making sure that everybody's getting the message. I'm still surprised about the number of companies that will speak to you and say the results will speak for themselves investors will find us. And unfortunately, the market isn't that perfect. It's very imperfect, right. And so as you know, you have to be out there, you have to be proactive. And so, so just to wrap all this together, you've dropped some really great tips throughout this podcast. So let's say I'm an IRO or member of the management team, who's sitting there going, oh, man, all I'm doing is sending out press releases. Got to think about PR. What would you say are some of the first steps like, if you were just to say, Hey, you're just getting started? Here are a few things to think about? What would that what would that be?
Goldstein
Let me see. First of all, I would, I would say, again, let's start building the relationships. Right? Let's see, like, if there are already relationships build, and if they are not, like start building the relationships. Like, I will tell them like that they need to go out and start telling their story in a way that gets the media outlets interested. And again, like, we spoke that before, we're not saying that this is easy, and it's going to be quick, because I feel that sometimes that's what frustrates companies, right, that they think that in six months, they will already be all over the covers. Right? And for a company that is smaller there. And that has not been out so much. It will take six months for the first or the first article to go out. Right. And and I think that having so first of all, strategize on what you want, what are your goals were needed to long term goals in terms of building the brand, the investor brand? And let's get out let's, let's start reaching out and talking to this. But and, of course, it's when we are thinking about the strategy. hearing us, we will need you to work with press releases. There's there's no other way to do it. But let's start looking at the press releases in a different way. Let's get them more engaging, let's get them more frequent. Because that's that I think, I think that I would say like, are you Wait, are you ready to commit to a frequency of releasing press releases? In a way that we will be able to go to gather more attention? Because that's something that we tell our clients in the beginning like, we will need you to create content. Right. That's, that's how it's done. And, and sometimes when we engage, we realized that it was harder to produce the content than we thought. So I think that it's important for management to really get the team engaged in because the content is there. Like if the company is public like there is there is new things going on. That's excellent, exactly. We just need to find to find the correct sources who will be giving us that content so that he can record a press release can become an interview can become more like something that will offer a specific journalist or that would build the relationship. So yeah, I think I think I will stress more this thing about being ready to create content.
Fasken
So a few things I took away from this as well, tips that you put out there. One was I thought it was a really good one is thinking about the journalists as stakeholders, and building that that long term relationship to your point, it's going to take six months or more to get that first article in, but you need to invest in the relationship. Talked about how social media channels, there is a lot of retail on there. But there are also a lot of institutional investors who are listening and watching. You talked about the integration of IR and PR. So I feel like if you're just starting that's another thing of getting iron PR in the room and saying, Hey, what are what are the things happening in the company that could be a story. I got lots of great actionable tips. So, Fabiane, I really appreciate the time. Thank you so much. And hopefully we can do this again soon.
Goldstein
No, thank you very much, Mark for having me. And that was a pleasure to participate in this podcast wish you a lot of success
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